"You Become a Victim of Someone Else's Decision" Golden Visas and Global Mobility

0:00English speakers are still a novelty here. And of course, I had two cats who basically destroyed their carriers on days one and three. There was a lot of discussion to make sure that we were aligned and that we were doing it for for similar reasons. What are the visa paths? Are you running towards something, or are you running away from something? And then what?

0:25I can't believe we're finally here. This is American fraud. Welcome to this week's episode of Americans Abroad. This week we are joined by Mo Bennis from Arton Capital to talk about residency by investment and just what is a golden visa anyway? Jen, I want to talk about kind of a heavy topic if, if that's OK. Of course.

0:50So we're recording this the last week of March 2026, and we've been getting a lot of questions about how the war is affecting folks, move abroad plan, you know, our country shutting things down for Americans. Are you seeing the same questions from our clients on your side? Yeah, I'm getting that question a lot. And Mo actually is going to bring it up in our interview as well. And we talked to him about it because he has a lot of clients in UAE.

1:21But yeah, it's something that's coming up a lot. People are, you know, moving abroad is political, it is geopolitical. And so when things happen, when uncertainty happens in the world, it affects people's journeys. You know, psychologically, they are torn between I want out even more so because I don't agree with what the US is doing. But then I'm afraid because I'm afraid I'll be targeted because I'm an American.

1:58Or I'm afraid that there's going to be all sorts of unrest in different places. And you, you know, our policy. We don't predict the future. And we can't say that they're, you know, what will happen next. And neither can anyone else on Earth. But our experience has been that nothing has changed thus far for anyone anywhere outside of clients in literally in the Middle East.

2:32And of course, that's a really scary time for them. Yeah, absolutely. You know, with the fear of are we going to be targeted or do we, are we going to be looked at differently? We we got the same thing right after the election too was, you know, do these countries want us or, you know, is there anti American sentiment?

2:52You know, for me, me here in Portugal, everyone who was lovely to me before is still lovely. Everyone who I who knows that I'm American. I think there is a little bit of like sympathy, a little bit of we are going to assume that you are not quote, UN quote one of them. Because I think those of us who have left the US, especially recently, folks around the world just kind of understand that the current political climate is part of why we left. If we were happy with, you know, rah, rah, let's, you know, let's start this war, let's bomb the

3:32Middle East, we'd probably still be in America, where? Right. You know, we, we can get in that echo Chamber of everything being what we would want it to be. And so, you know, we left because we didn't support what was going on in the US and we saw the writing on the wall. Has it been similar you in Mexico in terms of how the Mexican citizens have treated you as an American?

3:54Yeah, everyone here has always been incredibly kind and personal, aside from, like I said when I when I tried to rush onto an elevator. Not popular, but people in other countries don't seem to blame the average person for their government's decisions as much as as we think they, I guess most countries know that they don't all like their leadership either. They've dealt with corruption before and things like that. And I, you know, mostly they just treat us like people. It isn't top of mind if you remember, not trying to. I'm not trying to discount anyone's need to be hyper vigilant in the US right now.

4:47It's really important. And I think I think that we are better people for having become hyper vigilant in a lot of ways thanks to Trump in his first term or whatever else. But do you remember before when, when it wasn't what you were thinking about 24 hours a day? Like, yeah, yeah. If you can remember back before you thought about politics all day, every day, that's what it is like for most other people.

5:23It doesn't mean that. I'm not trying to discount that. It's important to be, you know, a high information voter. I'm not trying to say to check out bury your head in the sand. I'm really not. But I do think that there is a little bit better compartmentalization. And for since 2016, that's just been completely impossible for me in the US. You know, I remember the day that Kavanaugh was being confirmed and I had to like have meetings. I'm just devastated, you know, I'm just gutted. And to go into meetings and pretend like everything is normal was just so shocking.

6:07And of course that's happened now multiple at that times 1000. Yeah, I was getting a facial when Roe got overturned. And so that was the check out. And my esthetician goes, oh, they overturned Roe. So yeah, you know, going through normalcy and then recognizing that things are not normal around us, it has been, like you said, since 2016, feels like a daily occurrence. Yeah, and this is unpopular, but we, we did a lot of protesting, you know, and we did a lot of campaigning. And I, and I'm, I'm all for it, but I got to a point where it felt futile.

6:49That's probably nihilist. Nihilism is very catching at the moment especially. For us Gen. Xers, it would be a lot of realistic moment. Right it's I got AI still got a biker jacket in the closet and I and I've got nihilist leanings. And so I just started, I realized that the activism that I was doing had more of an impact on me and my feelings than it did on the world.

7:22And so I just, I needed to do something more impactful, which is, you know, first of all was leaving on my own and second of all is trying to move as many people as I can. Yeah. Has Expatsi changed any plans on any scouting trips or is that something that you and our tour manager, IKEA have have talked about?

7:43Because I know that's another question on people's minds. Yeah, people have asked, you know, are things changing? Honestly, the biggest hurdle right now is the freaking TSA in the USI saw a TikTok yesterday and girl spent the whole day flying and ended up back in Atlanta at the end of it. Like she, it took six hours to get through security.

8:09She finally gets through. She flies to LaGuardia. LaGuardia has a horrific accident. They don't land, they fly back to Atlanta and so it's a 24 hour travel day and she ends up back in her own bed nightmare. But yeah, no, nothing has changed in terms of our tours, in terms of where people are going. Yeah, if that changes, of course we'll let people know.

8:33But but at this point, everything is is hunky Dory everywhere we're going. Yeah, I know a lot of people are looking to leave because, you know, being in the US feels so like it triggers those cortisol levels and in a very real way. What advice would you give for folks who are feeling like this sense of being trapped, that it's a cyclical thing of I don't want to be here anymore. the US stresses me out, and I'm so stressed out that I can't move into action.

9:05You know, we have a lot of people's that are just in this spiral. So what would you say to them if you had a chance to get across to them? Well, you know I have that fake it till you make it strategy. We call it putting your purse down and I'm not going to get into the whole thing right now, but the OR do I?

9:24Do you think I have time to tell that whole? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah, OK. So I call it putting your purse down. And so the idea is, imagine that you are going into like a conference, a convention, a work event, a big wedding, whatever. You get to the venue. You've never been there before. It's pouring down rain.

9:42You're 20 minutes late. You can't find a parking space. So you get inside and you make a Beeline food bar. You know, alcoholic, non alcoholic, whatever. But they give you a drink. It's in that little dinky plastic cup. You go over to get something to eat. You're starving, but you only have like 2 fingers left because you've got your purse and your coat and your drink and your bed.

10:07And so you get like 1 mini quiche. And so you're balancing. You go to drink your drink, you spill your drink, you go to eat your quiche. You get spinach in your teeth. Somebody starts talking to you, can't remember their name. You don't know where to put your plates. Disaster, like just nightmare, right? And all you can think is I just want to go home and get out of these clothes and pull the covers over my head and watch Netflix.

10:31But if instead you walk in deep breath, box breathing, whatever, and you say, OK, where are the tables and chairs? And you go and find a spot, gin spot, and you put your purse down and then you go and get your drink and you bring it back. And then you go to the buffet and you're like bacon wrapped shrimp and eight kinds of cheese and satayed chicken and whatever.

11:02And you bring it back and maybe you see somebody you know and you can sit and replenish yourself and dry off and relax and re regulate your nervous system and find out if you know your boss is there or your ex or the HOA president or whoever your sworn enemy is. In 30 minutes. You are a new human being. And you're like, let's hit the dance floor. Let's get wedding cake.

11:31Let's go see that speaker that you wanted to see. And it changes everything. Moving abroad is hard and complicated and it requires action. There is no way around it. You are not. You are not just stumbling into a new country. It will never happen. But people are doing it and they feel like they are doing it while they're running from a tiger. So one idea is to just get out from in front of the tiger and then make all these decisions.

12:04And what that means is go somewhere tomorrow on a tourist visa or a visa that's easy. You know, it's not hard to get one from Mexico, depending, you know, not everyone can. And sometimes you have to do some work to get to a point where you can go somewhere. I get it. But you know, one example, our guide in Albania, Kelly, she moved abroad with two animals on $1500 and got to Albania.

12:34She was allowed to stay there a year. She rented a place for 150 bucks a month. And she used that time to build her business so that she could go to an EU country after that. And So what I did isn't right for everyone. But if you feel like that, if you feel panicked, can't make decisions, trying to do everything at once, but you also can't feel like you can't stay, like you can't go, then just bias yourself towards action.

13:05And once you get out, you are going to be a different person. And so then you know it. I can't speak to you, your situation and what works for you and so on, but if you can just get out from under the oppressive feeling, then OK. Now what do I want? And what you are going to want is going to be different than what it is today, doom scrolling 18 hours a day. Thanks so much for sharing that, Jen. I think that that's such good advice for those folks who feel stuck.

13:46Not sure what that next step is. And it is sometimes just putting 1 foot in front of the other. Yeah, and you could do it someplace nice, yeah. On the beach? Are you thinking about moving abroad but you're not sure where to start? Join us at Move Abroad Con. It's a 2 day event where you'll meet experts, get your questions answered, and leave with a real move abroad plan.

14:11It's happening May 9th and 10th in San Diego, CA. You can learn more and grab your ticket at moveabroadcon.com. We'd love to see you there. Welcome to Americans Abroad. Today, we're talking about golden visas with our partner Mo Bennis. You know, people wonder how much it takes to invest in a golden visa and that sort of thing.

14:33And it does have the word gold in the name. So it's not something you can just pick up necessarily on the cheap, but there are a wide variety of options. And I met Mo on Instagram and we have been partners for a long time. He is one of my oldest partners and we really love working with him.

14:50Mo, thank you so much for being here today. You're welcome Jen, and it's the pleasure is shared. I couldn't have asked for a better partner. You're so kind. So listen, you post a lot, especially on like LinkedIn, about the concept of global mobility. What is that and why is it growing? Global mobility is a concept that we developed a few years ago, actually more than a decade ago at at Arton Capital, the firm I work in.

15:19And global mobility is basically making sure that you're not hindered in your mobility. Let's say you want to travel for tourism purposes, business expansion, and you want to benefit from the healthcare system or the schools for your children in another system in another country. Well, we give you the means to be a global citizen, whether by acquiring A residency by investment, a citizenship by investment. And that gives you more of a Plan B and plan C on how to stay mobile at all times, whether it's there's political instability, whether as I said, you want to relocate but not right away or even during times

15:57of crisis. During COVID, you know, a lot of people with strong passport could not travel simply because borders were locked down. And people that had second residencies, that famous residency card or second passport all of a sudden had that mobility guarantee. So this is the concept that we preach is that mobility is really an asset class. The same way as you invest in stocks, the same way as you invest in, you know, a company, you can also invest in your mobility.

16:27So we know the freeze golden visa and there's just been maybe a lot of misinformation like Jensen at the top, you know, it has the word golden at it in it and you know, can't seem a little intimidating. But at its core, what is a golden visa and what does this allow you to do in most countries that offer a golden visa?

16:47Golden Visa is really a broad term that is being used right now in our industry, where a golden visa basically refers to an investment linked to an immigration process. And that investment usually is the thing, the medium that you use to have a residency or a citizenship in another country. So you wouldn't need to, in certain cases, learn the language fully. You would need to relocate physically, you would need to start paying taxes there or buy, buy a home to live there. It's your investment that does the talking and that allows you to get residency in Greece, in

17:24Portugal, in Bulgaria, in the Caribbeans, I mean, you name it. There are a few programs and countries that offer this path. And basically it's the investment part that does the immigration process on your behalf. Now, depending on the country, it will be a bit more restrictive or less restrictive. Some countries will ask you along with the investment to learn a little bit of the language or do a little bit of time per year or per every cycle to actually come physically and visit the country.

17:55And it really all depends on on the country that you choose that does offer this certain path, this golden visa on what restrictions is applied or what conditions are. And you have to abide by them to be able to either get the residency or keep renewing. One of the things we have people ask us every day who think that the golden visa is gone in Portugal, and of course it isn't.

18:20It's just change. What are the most common misconceptions people have about the idea of golden visas? The biggest misconception, first of all, is that it's not government regulated. Golden visas are actually government programs, the same way as a digital nomad or a tourist visa. Golden visas are government related, so it's the government that creates it and then puts different stakeholders, different companies or real estate developers or private equity funds as an investment medium and of course lawyers in the mix and they get them involved in that process. The misconception specifically for Portugal is that Portugal removed real estate as an option

19:02to get the golden visa to get that famous residency by investment. So in 2023, for about 10 years, 11 years, the government of Portugal allowed someone that bought real estate with certain conditions and a geographical component to get that golden visa. And in 2023, they said, well enough, we're not going to allow anybody to come and buy real estate and get that residency.

19:25So with that decree, people found that the golden visa simply died in Portugal, whereas it just evolved into, first of all, they made it more expensive. The, the investment threshold went to half €1,000,000. It used to be 250, two, 180,000 depending on the real estate. And the real estate got taken out as an investment medium. And now today it's mostly private equity funds.

19:52So you're investing in a fund that invests in a specific component of the Portuguese industry to be able to help a certain sector or help revamp a city or an industry. So it just evolved, but it's very much alive. And that happens to all. Golden Visa path is that they're constantly evolving. They used to be, they used to be more static. Now they're much more dynamic in terms of of requirements and rules.

20:20Interesting. So you know, there's the new, what is it, the US Gold card? What's it called? And it's a $5,000,000 donation, right? You just flat out buy your way into the US, is that right? Yes, that's the idea. However, we have yet to see a real implementation of that program. However, that's not even actually the real the real issue. The real issue is that that $5 million conversation gave a little bit of a benchmark to what already existed in Europe and in the Caribbeans and in other parts of the world. And they realized that they

20:59might be basically selling their golden visas too cheap like like in other places. So that's why there is that. I wouldn't say why 100%, but that triggered certain programs to become more expensive or to close and reopen under new iteration, but also more expensive or certain programs started becoming more restricted like the one in Greece where Greece tripled the price of the real estate eligibility for the purchase to be eligible for Golden Visa.

21:34And Greece also did a restriction in terms of your dependent. Even if you have children that have been granted the Golden Visa as a dependent in your application at 21 years old, they get kicked out of it. So they have to do their own application. So the conversation started where, OK, that's how much it cost to get a passport to a residency in United States because we still don't know what really comes with that $5,000,000 price tag. And then everybody, they all started benchmarking and saying, well, we might be selling our residences a little bit too cheap.

22:05So that's amazing. The practicality of of what? How it affected our industry. But it isn't in most countries, it isn't usually a donation, right? A lot of times it's an investment. You earn money back on it. But this is just straight up, you know, a bribe. The. USI mean look, the the component of giving basically a check of a certain amount to government is not new.

22:35The Caribbean countries have done it. However, whenever you do that, you really have to funnel that money towards a specific fund or to help and dying industry to revamp schooling, healthcare, hospitality. And that is really the question that needs to be addressed is where is that money going? Now I'm an eternal optimist, but I still prepare for the worst. Let's hope for the best.

23:00So I really think that if it's structured properly, that money can actually go to something that can be helpful. That remains to be seen. We have no idea how it'll be implemented. But the idea also of investing in other golden visas like in Europe has that also biggest misconception. A lot of people think that they're going to buy the prime real estate in Greece or invest in the SP 500 and get a free golden visa somewhere that's not there is a price stack to it. So whatever you invest in, there is a opportunity cost where the returns are not going to be on

23:37par with the market returns because the government will take a chunk, the general partners will take a chunk, and then you'll be left with a 2, three, 5% return or whenever they promise you higher returns on the golden visa aspect, that means there's a higher risk of your money being in jeopardy. So that's also a biggest misconception in our in our industry is that people think that they found that way of, you know, investing, getting the most out of the money and also getting a free golden visa as a thank you.

24:06And that doesn't always work that way. So you mentioned that Golden Visa is a pathway to residency or citizenship. Does every Golden Visa eventually lead to a pathway to citizenship or are there some that are just a permanent residency? And also for our listeners, can you just clarify the difference between residency and citizenship? Sure. To briefly and vulgarize it, there's three residencies and citizenship stages.

24:38The first one is a temporary residency, which means that there's condition. So the one in Portugal, for example, has a condition of you need to do seven days a year every every year for the next 5 years when you have your golden visa, and that gets renewed every two years. So there's a renewal aspect with conditions. So hence it's a temporary residency.

24:58As long as you comply, you get to renew it. Now the same residency applies in Greece. You, you renew every five years as long as you have your property title deed, they allow you to renew forever. If you want a permanent residency and usually permanent residencies, they lift those conditions. So Portugal tells you that in five years, if you've respected the temporary conditions of the every two year, the residency, being there that seven days a year, a year and learning a little bit of the language. Well, we will transit you to the permanent residency status, which means you can cash out

25:33your investment and there's no more seven days a year, there's no more condition. So you just a permanent resident for life and you're dependent without having to do much. It's really they lift if not 99% of the conditions, in most cases, they keep the one single condition of having an address there forever. Could be an address of a friend, could be a lease agreement, doesn't matter.

25:55But that's usually the only condition that stays with a permanent residency, and then the citizenship comes after. And this is where things get a little bit more tricky. Every country has different citizenship rules, especially in Europe or even in North America. Bulgaria will tell you under the Golden Visa, well, you don't have to reside in Bulgaria. You just have to learn a little bit of Bulgarian through the Golden Visa and in five years we'll give it to you.

26:22Give it eligible. Now I'm vulgarizing again the aspect Portugal said. Well, yes, you have to learn a little bit of Portuguese, but maybe not in five years. Maybe we're gonna make it 10 years now we're gonna make it like Spain. So we may be give it to you in 10 years plus processing. They don't know yet. The loss has five, but it could be 10.

26:42Malta says. Five years from now, if you live in Malta, even if you went through the golden visa, you actually have to live in Malta and show your adherence to the culture. And it's not really five years more 1215 years on. On the operational aspect. Greece, same thing, it's in eight years you got to learn the Greek language. So some countries where sometimes the golden visa appears to be more expensive will give you an easier path to a citizenship.

27:10And Portugal and Bulgaria, being the most expensive golden visas in Europe are the ones that gives you the the path of least resistance to get a citizenship in the medium to long term got. You if if a client's goal is ultimately citizenship in another country, maybe you know the goal is that EU passport or passport of another country. Is that something that you were able to talk out when you consult with that client before they start the golden visa process and pick a country?

27:39Absolutely. But we always have to reverse engineer when a client comes to us. They come with preconceived ideas and mostly something a friend or family member has done. And then maybe today doesn't apply to them. It doesn't. Also it's maybe it's not beneficial for their family structure, for their budget. And also, as I said, if the ultimate goal is citizenship, is there a relocation aspect to their plans?

28:03Is it right now? Is it later on? So we have to go through all this conversation to figure out what is the best solution for them. We try to really be client focused at Arton Capital rather than solution focused because that's the best way to make sure that at the end of the line, a client that we can be perfect.

28:20But the client stays with us for many, many years. And the better route is to make sure that we understand their needs at the beginning and ongoing needs to make sure that we have a good working relationship. Otherwise it can create a lot of friction, a lot of hurdles, a lot of dissatisfaction. And don't forget that governments are also unpredictable and they take decisions that sometimes are illogical or not beneficial for the client. And then you have to deal with that and you even have to take the the blame or the heat and the frustration of the client. And it's not always an easy

28:55task. However, if you've understood the needs and been clear since the beginning, that becomes much easier to deal with. OK, so I understand you give each client their own solution based on their needs. That said, what are the most popular golden visas for Americans specifically? Sure. I mean, Portugal is a great one. Simply I think, you know, especially a big portion of the US constituency, the the citizenship and the citizens in the US, they see themselves in Portugal in terms of values, in terms of lifestyle, in terms of, you know, the nonchalant live there, the healthcare system, schooling. Portugal remains a very, very

29:40popular one. Then Greece, Greece is becoming a bit more popular simply because a lot of people like the real estate aspect and Greece is the last one that had the real estate aspect in a link to the Golden Visa. Also, it's really geared towards families that have really, really young children. So it gives them really a long time before the children are not eligible to be dependents anymore or people that don't have children or people that are are pre retiree mode. So Greece remains also a great favorite. Malta is a good one.

30:14Malta is very good for, you know, same sex marriage couples. It's very, very welcoming community. It's great. In terms of taxation. They have a very, very, you know, forthcoming taxation system that allows you to, you know, declare your taxes if you live there, but still have, you know, a low tax income in Malta, if not any, if you have external sources.

30:39Of course, what we do is we always ask the client to have a very good tax attorney when, whenever they do this. And I think Expatsi has a great network of those. So we always recommend them to you to, you know, to use them. And there's a funny one is the UAE, the United Arab Emirates, which is more of a plan. CA lot of people also in their mid 40s, fifties. They have liquidity events, they have business expansion mindset. They want to optimize their corporate taxation and they need a golden visa in favorable place

31:12that's not a tax haven that has great banking system and the UAE fits the bill. So many clients will take different solutions for different problems. So it's not just a, they're not buying a sofa, it's not a, you know, for that sofa for the rest of your life. They get different solutions based on their needs. And Portugal, Greece, Malta, and I would say even Bulgaria is sticking the box right now. It's becoming more popular for for U.S. Citizens and the UAE as a more of a Clancy is is quite popular. So you mentioned UAE.

31:50How is the war in Iran affecting people who want golden visas there or people who are living there now? It, it is not great, to be honest. It's on a human level. Whatever is happening in the UAE and in the neighboring countries and the war in Iran is not a situation to to wish on anyone. However, what we've seen is especially for the UAE and the UAE is United Arab Emirates.

32:19Everybody says Dubai, but Dubai is one of the seven Emirates. So we'll just refer to it as Dubai just for people to, to understand the, the, the, the vulgarization of the conversation. But in the, in Dubai, they've treated people that had golden visas. So a residency there like citizens. And they really, really showcased the value of having a residency in that country. So that's they've, they've helped them in terms of rent. They've helped them if they were in hotels, they've helped them if they needed to go somewhere, catch a flight, they, they really, really were on the ball.

32:53And the way they've handled the residency safety during the time of war will be studied for, for the the, the next years to come. I'm convinced of that. And I'm Canadian and I'm telling you that Canadian constituents that were in the UAE and wanted to get out or wanted to be, you know, just to be helped by their consulate have been sorely disappointed.

33:15So that's 1/2. The UAE right now is a perfect example of what's happening in the one around in the neighbor countries where if you don't plan your mobility, you become a basically a victim of history, a victim of someone else's decision. So yes, what's happening is, is not a great situation. It's actually very sad, but it's putting again under the spotlight that if you have not gotten a second residency somewhere else or a second passport, well, you're basically just stuck where you are in terms of times of crisis. And that's no matter how much money you have. Mo, are you starting to?

33:55See more Americans seeking out the Golden Visa option. In the last 12 months, Americans, to be honest, represent about 30% of our clients. Two years ago, they represented 1 or 2%. It's, it's been a crazy, crazy hike. Like we're looking at opening offices in United States. We're looking at, you know something that we've never really contemplated because you have a strong passport, but this industry before used to take the the main client before was a client that not ultra high net worth, but that was worth between 2 and 5 million USD. And then needed a better

34:41mobility just in terms of tourism to be able to travel, to be able to go to Europe, etcetera. And then today that transformed into someone with a strong passport like US, Canada, in terms of mobility, even European citizens, they want a second passport or a second residency elsewhere because first, they're mobile, they want to stay mobile and they want to hedge their bet against instability.

35:05So this is something that we've never seen in in 20 years of existence, but it just showcases how now it's becoming an important aspect of planning for Americans. Mo last question for people who are considering this path, what do they need to know before they get started and how did they get started? The best way to to go about it is actually do a little bit of research, go on and onto Internet, try to get some surface level knowledge.

35:40But as soon as you think you know, then you have to contact either me from like ours. Of course, we have your expansive network in mind and it's a great time to get expert advice. The problem here is that there's too many components and too many stakeholders in a golden visa process to be able to manage everything without really losing track or focus or making sure that you don't actually literally be get defrauded online.

36:14There's another thing that you have to be careful about is ads. A lot of people, because they start searching for golden visas and citizenship by investment, they will start seeing ads. For €40,000, get a Romanian passport or Slovenian passport where, trust me, the last European passport that you could buy outright, it was $1.1 million and that was for Malta and it was cancelled because he considered it too cheap.

36:38So there's no €40,000 European passport that you can buy on an Instagram ad. You have to be very careful on that. So that's why you have to deal with experts. Expatsi is a great gateway to be able to talk to every experts that you have from us to as I said, we give the piece of the puzzle on the on the on the planning basis and expenses network have all the other pieces of the puzzles and it's always easy to get in contact me with me through the expense. And First off, thank you so much

37:08for the kind words, Mo. We do want to let all of our listeners know that Mo does a, a complimentary discovery call. So if you feel that golden visa, you know, you've read the things online, you're not quite sure what's true, what's not, you saw that €30,000 Slovenian password. You just want to figure out what's what. You can visit expatsi.com and he's in our list of experts and book your discovery call.

37:32Also, Mo is going to be with us at Move Abroad Con in San Diego on May 9th and 10th. So if you want to have a chance to have a little bit of that conversation in person, please come join us in San Diego. You can learn more at moveabroadcon.com. Mo, thank you so much for joining us today on Americans Abroad.

37:50You're welcome, Jen, Stephanie, always a pleasure. Jen, you know what time it is. I do, and let me tell you. You know a music producer here today. Right days go by between the times that we record these podcasts and I have the opportunity to write a hilarious song about listener questions, but I never think about it until we are literally sitting here and I have nothing.

38:30I Can't Sing. I'm not musical. There are not many rhyming words. I really dropped the ball on this. I this, this is my my greatest regret in life is that I do not get a song to hire. Somebody do. Do you write songs? Do you write jingles? E-mail us at podcast. At expatsi.com, I think we we've realized where this needs to be outsourced.

38:55I know we need to outsource it. OK, your questions, suggestions, the end. Reflections. Elections, elections. Elections. We help you move. We make it smooth. You ask us how? Then you're in the groove. You're in the groove. I love it. Love it. OK. So, you know, in our interview with Mo, he talked a little bit about the countries with golden visas that allow for residency and citizenship. And we know that, you know, each one has a different pathway and timeline and it's, you know, a little choose your own adventure.

39:37We had actually somebody who wrote in about residency versus citizenship, they asked, can you explain the benefits or pros and cons and differences between establishing residency and establishing citizenship? Can you talk a little bit about maybe some pros and cons of permanent residency versus citizenship and you know what people might need to know? This is a really common question.

40:02A lot of times people come to us and they'll say I can't move anywhere because I don't have, I don't have grandparents from another country. And it's like, what? How? Why would you think that's the only way you can move abroad? So in general, the ways that you get permanent residency or citizenship are similar, which is you stay in a country for a certain amount of time legally through some legal path, whether it is getting a job there or having passive income or being a digital nomad or being an investor like Mo talks about or whatever else.

40:39The time to permanent residency or citizenship varies wildly from country to country. There are countries where it's like 20 years, like you have to be competitive, but then like Europe, why? We'll give you citizenship in three years, but only if you're married anyway. So it's. The rules are all over the board. But the truth is you don't ever have to be a citizen of another country to live a happy life abroad. The benefits of being a citizen are, you know, that you have legal standing, you can vote, you won't be ostensibly kicked out.

41:19Now, The thing is, you know, we've heard the administration in the US talk about denaturalizing citizens. And what that means is there are people in the US who became citizens because of that path I'm talking about. They stayed in the US legally for a certain number of years. They went through the process, they became citizens. And so they're basically talking about revoking it.

41:44So you know, it's upside down rights. Left, left, right, up, down, black is white. The rules don't apply. So certainly anything can happen at any time. But ostensibly you have more rights as a naturalized citizen. There might be shortcuts to citizenship if you marry someone locally or if you do, it just depends on the on the country. You usually have to do exactly what you see in the US with movies like Green Card, you know, which is to say you have to take a language test.

42:22You have to know about you, the country's civics or history and things like that. I'll tell you more. I'm going to do it in Mexico, so I'll tell you what that's what that's like when it's time. But being a permanent resident also conveys enough benefits for most people. If you don't ever care if you vote in Greece or in Uruguay, and you trust the government to not kick out permanent residents because you know, the truth is no one should be kicking out permanent residents either. The only people who really should be ejectable are people who overstay visas, who are not

43:06documented, potentially tourists in situations like a pandemic or whatever else. And then after that, temporary residence. But in most cases, being a permanent resident is really enough for most people, especially retirees. You know, I say that because like the last time that you have, you're not, you know, you're not raising kids there. You're not going to be in the school system, you know? They're not worried about passing it down for their for their future.

43:41That's right. And then in Mexico, by the way, for citizenship, if you are a senior citizen, they give you an easier language test. Amazing. Like can I hold out? Yeah exactly. Or am I having a just a weird ADHD day and I cannot brain that day? Can I just pick the easier one for? Real. I'm so nervous. But anyway, I got I have four years to worry about that. I just wanted because Mo mentioned also, you know, that Portugal currently five years, 10 years, and man, when we were going through the process of moving to Portugal, we have so many folks going.

44:19Are you still going because Portugal changed their citizenship to 10 years? And I'm like, honestly, I don't want to say I don't care, but it doesn't really change. I can still enroll in public health care system as even a temporary. After three months. Yeah, I just have to wait for them to send me my number. But that's bureaucracy. That's a whole another topic for another day. Everything that day-to-day Portuguese citizens have access to and the protections and the reasons why we moved, we still can take advantage of even while permanent residents. So if the rules change down the

44:59road and it goes from five years to 10 years, you know, is that a little bit of a bummer? Sure. But does that make us regret our decision? No, because number one, we moved to Portugal because we want to be in Portugal. We didn't want to get a passport and just just go and #2. Honestly, Jen, it gives me an extra 5 years to learn this language where one word and tiny pronunciation change means it's something completely different and sometimes borderline offensive.

45:23I think I could take advantage of that extra. Oh my gosh, I get that. I get that. It's nice, citizenship is nice, but I think for really what most Americans are looking for and why they're moving abroad or why why they're exploring this option, permanent residency still gets them what they're looking for. Well, maybe they won't. Maybe they won't end up passing that tenure law anyway. You know, it passed Parliament or whatever, but then it was ruled unconstitutional.

45:50So they have an uphill battle to make it 10 years. And it might not affect people who are already in the system. You know, it might only affect new people. So it might work out anyway. But I agree, I think that, you know, worry about one thing at a time. Some people are going to have long term strategies and it's fine. Yeah.

46:09But if you are struggling to put 1 foot in front of the other, the last thing you need to be worrying about is your citizenship paperwork. That is, that is future use problem. Worry about current use problem. Yeah, Americans Abroad is an Expatsi production. Please like, share, subscribe and leave a review. Are you thinking about moving abroad?

46:34Start with our quiz at expatsi.com. That's expatsi.com.