"Kind of Like a VIP Pass" Golden Visas in Europe

0:00English. Speakers are still a novelty. Here And of course I had two cats who basically destroyed their carriers on days one and three. There's a lot of discussion to make sure that we were aligned and that we were doing it for for similar reasons. What are the visa paths? Are you running towards something or are you running away from something?

0:24And then what? I can't believe we're finally here. This is Americans Abroad. Welcome to this week's episode of Americans Abroad. I'm Jen and I'm Stephanie. And we're with Expatsi. And then we also help Americans move abroad. It's the name. So clever. How are you doing this week? Doing good This whole week has been nothing but doctor's appointments, just back-to-back tests and doctors and diagnosis and medications.

0:57So I have been fully integrating myself into the Portuguese healthcare system this week. I could not be more proud of you for getting all of that done. I know you don't like it. I'm the opposite. I think I probably have Munchausen's. You know, I'll listen. I'll go to a doctor now, right? For my own self. I'll go to a doctor. I I I have no qualms at all.

1:21I'll get. Let me tell you, though. After this surgery, though, I've had about enough for a while. I'm like. Put it on pause, yeah. Yeah, I forgot. I'm like, oh, yeah, this is hard. This is not a walk in the park. So I'm so proud of you. So this week, I had the opportunity to talk to Jason Swan on my own, as you did your appointments. And he helps people get golden visas, specifically in Portugal, although his team can help with all the countries that offer golden visas.

1:49You had considered a golden visa, had you not for Portugal? Yes, when we first started thinking about moving abroad, this would have been late 2022 or mid 2022. Time just blurs. But yeah, 2022. And we had looked at a few options for where we could go and started to strike things off the list. And then through my real estate brokerage, I started to hear about this thing called the Golden Visa in Portugal where you could buy a piece of property for at least €250,000.

2:25And by buying your house or your condo or whatever, you could get residency in Portugal. And I was like, amazing. We bought our house initially in 2019. So we benefited from that big equity boom that we saw nationwide through COVID. And I'm like Dave, we could sell our house here and put at least 50% down on something in in Portugal. And if we need to cash out some stuff or figure out if we need to pay cash for everything to get this residency, amazing. And so we started, we were scrolling through Idealista and like bookmarking things and had,

3:01you know, minimum fun Twitter. It was amazing. And we're like, we could go here and I would show these properties to to friends and we were all in on this plan. We knew we needed some time to kind of get ducks in a row. And at the time I think we're like, we can do this in two years. That was our first mistake because that program got cancelled maybe six months later. It was like.

3:26Just in time. Exactly. So, you know, we, we had to pivot and thankfully we did. But I think it was a good lesson in recognizing that the rules that exist one day don't necessarily exist the next day. And we saw that throughout our our relocation. You know, thankfully most of the rule changes were minor, an additional piece of paperwork or a deadline or something like that, but it really highlighted that information that we get about relocating can change and often changes and can change pretty pretty quickly. Oh, yeah, and absolutely will.

4:02You can count on it. These rules do not exist to serve us. It is not. Oh, let's put together some friendly rules to help. Outsiders know the rules are there to help their local citizens. It's another reason why, you know, a lot of times people will consume too much online content and think that countries don't want you or this or that.

4:24And listen, when it comes to people on the Internet, you can find all kind of opinions on anything, of course. But in countries offer visas because it helps their citizens. If the visa paths no longer help their citizens, they will end the visa paths. There may be a delay here or there because things take time. Change takes time.

4:47And sometimes they get rid of visa paths that help their citizens if they become unpopular politically. A great example of that is Spain's Golden Visa. Spain had a golden visa where you could buy a home for €500,000 And, and to be fair, like these are really large amounts, especially in Southern Europe and it probably used to be less. Even the Portugal 1 you were talking about when it first started.

5:15I you could buy a property for, I don't know, a hundred, 125, something like that. And they made it go up over time and dependent on what area of the country you're in. And Greece has just went up dramatically. You know, now it's €400,000 and €800,000 depending on where you are. But so Spain had a golden visa and you can get it by investing in the country or by buying a home. And if you go and look, they had less than 800 people do it a year, 800 people.

5:48There are 45 million people in Spain. And no matter and, and The thing is all 800 weren't even buying homes. Let's say 300 were buying homes. And so that, and that's money that's pouring into the, the country that it needs. It genuinely is. It's genuinely helpful. But it became unpopular to say foreigners are coming and buying up all our houses, yadda, yadda, yadda. And there is just no planet in which 300 houses in Spain has created a housing shortage.

6:24It just isn't possible compared to the fact that 300 * 500,000 euros is 1.515 a $150 million. So $150 million comes. Is that right? 1.3 times is 1.530 times is 50? Yeah, $150 million is coming into your country and you are losing 300 houses. There is no way that you aren't getting 300 more houses built with this largess of 150 million. But it's unpopular and so it's an easy thing to cancel and it goes away and it's a shame.

7:09Now there's some golden visa paths that make sense to get rid of. A perfect example is Malta. Malta had a visa path that was very much like that Trump gold card. Oh yeah, we're. Just like write a check and yeah, welcome. To your exactly, for $1,000,000 you became a multi citizen. Which is all well and good if Malta was its own little island on its own, but it isn't, it is in the EU.

7:42So for $1,000,000 you became an EU citizen. Well guess who has $1,000,000 throw around and wants to become an EU citizen? Bad actors from other countries I live. I'm not going to try to demonize Russians and Chinese or people in the Middle East. But oligarchs from these countries of extreme wealth inequality and corruption want to spend $1,000,000 and become an EU citizen. Well that's fine for Malta.

8:13But then France is like, I don't want to sell my citizenship and they have to because this person is a citizen. So I completely understand why you get rid of those programs. There is still a golden visa in Malta, but it is not a write a check, get a citizenship. You still have to naturalize and do all the things that that people do.

8:34And that is just your path in. So, you know, that said, there are visa, visa options are always going to change. And the other thing that I don't think people realize is it's not like the government creates the visa and then sort of manages the programs. They create this visa and then companies fill in those gaps and say, OK, so people can get a visa by buying a $400,000 property, a 400,000 year old property in Greece. And So what they'll do is create the vehicles and we have one partner and they've created what amounts to a timeshare. Honestly, you pay €400,000, you

9:26get a timeshare, it qualifies you for the visa. At the end of the visa program, they give you your €400,000 back and you give back the timeshare and you have your permanent residency. So that's, that's the other piece of it is that companies are going to spring up us included, right? We help you right, to support to support those programs. I've even had ideas, you know, you can invest in a business in a lot of these and we're we're global. So at some point in future maybe we'll have a France arm or a Portugal arm and you can invest

10:13in Expatsi and get your golden visa that way. Who knows? Yeah. And it's, you know, it's not even full programs that disappear sometimes. It is these little changes. The income requirement for Mexico where you are changed this year, didn't it? Well, most of them change every year, and here's why. Substantially, substantially changed. The OK, so almost all visas that require income that have some income requirement are based on a multiple of minimum wage. And what I think Americans do not realize is that in almost every other country minimum wage goes up every single year because to to account for cost

10:59of living changes. And you know, when you think about the fact that minimum wage hasn't gone up since, what, 2007? Something like that in the US, that's insane. It's absolutely insane. Other countries, it goes up every year. And so Mexico has a program where we're getting residency is a multiple of minimum wage like everyone else. But whereas in most countries it's one times minimum wage for a retirement visa and then some multiple of minimum wage for digital nomad visa, in Mexico it's like 50 times minimum wage or something. It's, it's a lot and it's not 50

11:45times, but it's a lot of times. And over the past, I don't have the stats in front of me right now, but 5 to 10 years minimum wage has increased something like 350% in Mexico, which is phenomenal. They really needed it, fantastic. But they haven't decoupled the number of times of minimum wage you need. So what happens is for temporary residency, you need about $4200 a month in income, which is a ridiculous amount of money in Mexico. I mean, my God.

12:25And then for permanent residency, it's like $7500 a month. Like that's probably what the president makes, you know, So they really need to, to look at that if they want, you know, they can do whatever they want, but you can also, the thing about Mexico is there's a loophole, which is you can show savings instead of income, which is what I did because you on the startup, I didn't come here making $4200 a month, but I had an, I had a retirement account.

13:00And so as long as you had about $75,000 in a retirement account over the past 12 months or any kind of savings, you know, you could show that instead. And that's what we did. Amazing. This week on Americans Abroad, we are talking to our friend Jason Swan, who helps people get golden visas for Europe. Jason, welcome. Hi, Jen, How are you doing? Very well, thanks for being here. Very welcome, good to see you again. What is a golden visa?

13:41What does that mean? It sounds so fancy. A golden visa is kind of like AVIP pass Gen. It's kind of a reward for bringing money into a country. And if you bring money into the economy in certain countries, they will reward you with the right to live, work or study in that country and in some cases access to the healthcare and and things like this as well. Is it is it different from other kinds of visa paths that people pursue, like passive income or skilled work? It is the the key difference with golden visas, generally speaking is that it comes

14:25without the need to live in the country. So you get a lot more flexibility with a golden visa where you don't have to be tax resident in the country, you don't have to work in a certain category or be skilled in a certain field. The application is very straightforward as far as just, you know, if you, if you invest or donate to the country, you're automatically granted with that that flexibility and and those rights to enjoy the country.

14:55So the the other the other passive income visas generally require full time tax residency and often come with other criteria to qualify outside of of just bringing the investment capital into the country. So it is a savvy way to move abroad that makes financial sense for some people. Potentially, yeah, potentially. So it's, it's very much used as a it's, it's very much kind of a Plan B if you like.

15:25So investors have the option to to kind of have rights to Europe now without the need to move just yet. You know, they could. They can decide where and when to move way through. Does every country have a golden visa? Sadly not. That would be great, John, if, if they did, because my my phone would be, I'd say phone. No one uses the phone anymore, do they? But, but no, not all countries, but in Europe, you know, the likes of Portugal tends to be the, the number one, followed by the likes of Italy, also followed by Greece as well. France has a golden visa

16:04programme. Malta, Malta closed the citizenship programme last year, but they still have a golden visa programme for residency. And there's, there's others as well, but they all have their own individual requirements and all have their own benefits to to choose from, you know? People always think that the Portugal visa is over. They ask us that all the time. Oh, the Portugal visa doesn't exist anymore. Why do people think that?

16:36It's, it's very, it's quite hard to believe because I also get that question. And the reason is, Jim, is because there is still headlines and articles online from 2023 saying the programme has closed. And ten months of 2023 the programme was due to close. And I remember I was actually watching AI was actually watching the soccer as as you guys like to call it when Instaville at the time.

17:02And my phone started, my phone actually was beeping whilst I was watching the the game because there was a lot of publications on the back of a government announcement to say the programme was closed. There was a lot of panic, but the programme didn't close. Ultimately it took ten months to come to the conclusion to keep it open.

17:21And really the only substantial change to the programme in the end was just the removal of investment into property as a way to qualify. But everything else is is pretty much exactly the same. Do you have to be super wealthy to get a golden visa? How much do they cost? It depends on the country. Generally as a general rule of thumb for Europe you'll find you'll need €250,000 upwards, some countries slightly less but in the main 250 upwards, some countries 500,000. You don't have to be super wealthy. My, my typical client is someone

18:03kind of thinking of retirement, maybe in the next 10 years or in retirement that has access to investment capital, you know, from, from those kind of those kind of figures. But of course you don't want to be investing every penny that you have, Jen. So it needs to be something that clients can comfortably put into an investment without, you know, worrying about money then whilst whilst they're invested.

18:26But I wouldn't say I have ultra high net worth clients as a whole. It's it's, you know, your your typical American citizen more more often than not. Yeah, the ultra high net worth go to New Zealand. Yeah, indeed, amongst other places, but yeah, for for Europe, yeah, it is. It's like I said, the general kind of pain points are political uncertainty in the USI often talk about the word like I say, plan BI speak to a lot of people that don't want to move just yet, but they'd like the option to possibly in the future.

19:08I've heard things like around gun crime as well. You know, the safety of Europe has come up in conversations. I speak to a lot of same sex marriage couples as well that are worried about their rights and protections in the future. So it yes, it's very much based on individual circumstances, but people of all, all types. Can you move your retirement funds into one of these programs?

19:36Your IRA or 401K and and your investment funds. Many clients from the US have have done that and it seems to be a common question for for U.S. citizens from the Portugal side and from the European side as a whole. As long as the money for the investment comes from the the main applicant, it can qualify on the EU side.

20:04But if if you are using a retirement account, there is some planning to do on the US side, which isn't something I I get too much involved with, but certainly I can I can guide investors. To to someone who can in the US and, and they can explore if it's possible for them depending on the retirement accounts that, that they have.

20:26But in theory, yes, there's there's nothing stopping that on on the EU side. You mentioned Americans, and one big use case that we see is exactly what you said, which is I want to move abroad, but I'm not ready now. I'm retiring in three years or I still have two kids in high school, but I don't want to wait and see what happens.

20:53Are you seeing more Americans getting golden visas in Europe? American applications for major Arab around 250% I would say since around November time, 2024. I don't know what happened in the US at that time. You might. Around that time, say the 5th or 6th. But that that there's been a significant uplift, but immigration as a whole from the US has been on the up, I would say over the past three or four years really with a with a particularly sharp spike since that time. It's not just from the US though. I mean, last year Portugal registered 30 million people landing in Portugal for the

21:42first time in its history. Property prices have doubled since 2017. The stock markets are doing exceptionally well. You know, the the Portuguese index is up over 20% over the past 12 months, similar trend over the past few years. So it's all, it's all very exciting in Portugal at the moment. So yeah, not not just from the US.

22:08Many of which Where are you from and where do you live now? I'm from Manchester in England, but you might pick up from my accent. I've been in Portugal though for the past five years. Previous to I'm down in the South in, in the Algarve and previous to Portugal I was over in Spain in Malaga for for five years.

22:30And yeah, around 2016 I moved out from from Manchester in England. How do you like living in Portugal? Well, I love living in, I'm kind of like a mascot for Portugal Gin. I think it is the best country in the world to live in personally, And I'm I'm fortunate enough to be quite well travelled and we've just recently bought our forever home. I've recently had a a son, as as you may know, and Max, my baby boy is, is actually Portuguese.

22:59He just skips the visa process all together, just went straight for the passport. So we're, we're, we're well and roots well and truly rooted in Portugal now. And yeah, very happy, very happy where where we are down in the South. He's such a sweetheart. We got to meet him during move abroad kind and he's just the cutest little butterball you ever saw in your life.

23:23He's a lot bigger now as well, John. It won't be. It won't be long till he's as big as you. I can't, yeah. So it won't be at all. Maybe when he's two or three years old. So you mentioned that you can't get a Portugal Golden Visa anymore by buying a home. I know that that was super popular.

23:41Are there any European countries where you can still get residency by buying a home? Oh yes, yeah, of course. Yeah, residency is is not too, not too hard to find by buying property, I mean take, I mean Greece comes to mind straight away. It is one option. There's there's various countries where you can buy a property for residency And the the big difference is whether or not our clients want to progress towards citizenship as well, which can a very different story.

24:15But but yes, in short, you can still buy property in some European States and and have the residency rights at least for that country. And what golden visas do progress you towards EU citizenship? There isn't a lot left in all honesty. Gem and things are changing. There's not many Europe, there's not many countries now that a offer a golden visa programme and a path towards citizenship without at least so long to be tax resident in the country. So but you still have the of course, we have the Portugal programme model.

25:03The the, the timeline to citizenship has increased over the past month. So it now it's now very much the same as the rest of Europe where it takes 10 years to apply for citizenship. But it can still be done with with the golden visa. And the same with, for example, Latvia, Also the same with Italy, also the same with France. But each of these countries do require at least some time in in the country they're actually physically live in before before you can apply for that passport.

25:39But France, for reference, France currently has the shortest timeline towards citizenship. You can do that in five years for those that are interested in in France. And what does the investment look like in France? Because we do talk to a lot of people who are very specifically interested in France. Well, there needs to be an investment into an established French company with an investment sum of €300,000.

26:07And with that you become a shareholder within the French company. And as long as you know you have a clean criminal record and and pass the the general due diligence for someone that friends would like to have in the country, then it's a relatively straightforward process on the on the basis that you can make that investment in line with the requirements. So what you're saying is we need to establish Expatsi France and then when people invest in it then they can get residency there?

26:39Well, exactly. And the, there's different visas for France, but again, the golden visa means that you don't have to live there full time. So you can kind of have that VIP pass if you like to come and go as you please. You can work in the country, you can set up a business in the country, you can live study in the country, but you don't have to live there to maintain those rights, which is the big difference compared to to the to the other visa routes.

27:08What is the benefit for people in getting citizenship in one EU country? And well, citizenship in Europe with any country gives you access to live anywhere in Europe. You might remember a phrase called Brexit, the general. It's a very sore topic for us Brits. But before Brexit, I could do exactly that. I could live anywhere in Europe because I had a British passport.

27:39Of course, we know now Britain isn't part of the EU, at least not not yet, which will be very ironic if the UK ends up going back into Europe. But we'll see if that happens. But, but if you have a European passport through any country, you have rights to live in any EU state. So you could have a French passport and you could live in Italy, you could have a Spanish passport and you could live in Germany, for example. So that's, that's the the freedom that you get being a citizen.

28:08However, I will add to that something that we've been talking a lot more about recently, Jen, since the the timeline changes towards citizenship in Portugal is that after five years of residency in Europe, it is possible to apply for what is a long term residency status. It's EU status, which also allows the ability to live in other European countries before you get citizenship as well.

28:40So, so something worth nailing. Oh. That is really swanky and so, but that hasn't passed yet. Oh yeah, that's, that's actually been been available for years. It's just something no one's ever talked about because because you've always got the passport after five years. But but now the passport's gone to 10 years. That's now of course become a a talking point to as an old another way to get that freedom to other countries.

29:10Oh, that's amazing. What a great benefit. And so the other benefit of golden visas is not having to be a tax resident until such time as you're ready, right? Why is that important to Americans in particular? Well, for a lot of Americans, they don't want to move to Europe full time, they don't want to pay taxes in Europe.

29:42They just want the freedom to spend more time in Europe without the commitment, like I say, of the taxes and, and of the, of the need to stay here all the time. So, so it's more around the freedom rather than not paying taxes. It's not a bad thing to, to become tax resident in Europe. There is a tax treaty between the US and all European states so that you're not double taxed.

30:08And well, it's more around the, the freedom and like I say, without the need to become tax resident and, and spend all your time here, you have the option to move as and when you wish and keep things very much the same for the for the foreseeable future. What are the biggest misconceptions that people have about golden visas or are there?

30:34Any not that generally I speak to Jim because I suppose I, I, I tried, I tried to inform people quite well before, you know, before we, we, we have a one to one meeting. But but yeah, always like, like you say, I'd probably say that the programmes have closed or there's misconceptions about how to qualify. Sometimes, often there's confusion about which family members can be included, what the costs are involved as well, which can vary quite drastically between different companies that you speak to.

31:12I won't mention any names in particular, but there are some providers outside of Europe that that levy exceptionally high fees, which can often miss, miss drew. Miss Drew, is that the word kind of Miss Drew the overall cost of the process. So yeah, all these things of course we covered during an initial discussion and that the goal of of a conversation of course is to make sure that you have all the up to date facts and information to work out, you know what, what your plan of action might be.

31:46Well, I guess a lot of people learn about golden visas from things like the webinars we do together. So talk about the webinars that we do every month. Yeah, of course. So I had the pleasure of the move abroad Compton, which I LED a while back in San Diego, which was great. I could, I could actually see everyone asking the questions for a change.

32:06But I don't have the luxury of of getting over to America every month. So instead, we host the Everything that You Need to Know programme each and every month to allow clients to log in and learn all about the options that are available and ask questions live without, you know, the commitment of speaking on a one to one basis or, you know, having to to to go through the motions.

32:32So anyone that's interested in kind of getting access to Europe is welcome to join. And again, ask questions and we'll try and make that as as informative as possible and as entertaining, of course, Jen, as as we can. You can always find our upcoming webinars at expatsi.com/events and you can meet one-on-one with Jason at expatsi.com/experts. Jason, thanks so much for being here.

33:03I know that England is playing Norway on Saturday. This will be over by the time people hear this, but what is the England chant? If you're a fan and you want England to beat Norway, what is the chant in the stands? We'll just go with England, England, England, Jen, that'll do. I can't say I know a lot of chants for the national team, but that'll do.

33:27OK, England, England, England. Jason, thanks so much for being here. No problem. Thanks Jen. I'll speak to you soon. Jen, do you know what time it is? I am mildly aware of the time. What time is it? It is time for me to tell you this song that I wrote and listen, I think a lot about what it felt like to move abroad and what drove me to it. And so I wrote this little ditty with that in mind. Do you have a minute?

34:11I I do. I'm still working all the. Minutes in the world. OK, I'm still working through it, but here's how it goes. I ran. I ran so far away. I just ran. I ran for a a mile and a day, a mile and eight days. I did get away. Do. Do, do do. That's what I was thinking for a little musical thing. Do do do do do do do do.

34:44I could see a sporting very exciting new haircuts along with this song. It is a new era for us for sure. Listen, I love, I love a swept haircut. Invest in eyeshadow. And shoulder pads. Let's get to this week's question We had somebody write in and ask. I've noticed a lot of people seem to end up in smaller towns instead of the capital cities.

35:09Is that mostly about cost or do people actually end up happier there? I guess let's talk a little bit about how people decide where in a country to go. This is interesting and and I don't this is very anecdotal so I don't know that that's necessarily true. But I will say that an Expatsi client is more likely to end up in a smaller town. And I do think it makes sense because we know most of our clients are Gen.

35:39X like us. Some are boomers, some are millennials. But we have a a big bell curve around Gen. X folks. And most Gen. X folks have had their time of living in a city center if they so wanted it. And they are more likely to want a little bit of peace and quiet. Not to say that our the Expatsi fan loves wine, they love food, they love a cobblestone St. they want to go to a museum, they're very interesting and culture and cosmopolitan.

36:17But I think they also want a place to have quiet read a book, be on their own. So I think mostly what is driving that amongst our clientele is age and where they are in their lives. Yeah. I think also, you know, if we think about the makeup of the US and somebody moving to the US, to the US, they're not necessarily going to go to New York and LA.

36:43But if we ask people outside of the US, like name 2 cities in the US, that's what they're going to name. And so I think it's also, you know, I'll take Portugal, for example. People know Lisbon, they know Porto. But I would say like a city like Coimbra is sizable. There's a major university, but it may not be, it may not translate as a capital city or a big metropolitan area, even though it has museums and concert halls and all of those things that make a cosmopolitan city. So I think we have these mid

37:14cities that kind of get overlooked if we were in the US, you know, Dallas, TX, Kansas City, MO, maybe even something like Chicago where they're not the big neon sign of a city, but they still offer a lot. So I wonder how much of it is perception as well. Chicago is sending us an e-mail right now. You're like well or even where I can San Antonio the 7th largest city in the US, but you could ask 100 people across the world and go name a major city and they're not going to name San Antonio.

37:46So I wonder also how much of it is just Americans knowledge of where the major hubs are and that there might be more than what we're expecting. I'm in via Nova de Guy. And if I tell somebody I'm in via Nova de Guy, they're like where? But I'm I can like Sarah Palin. I can see Porto from my balcony. Yeah, so he's a good as Porto.

38:10Absolutely. And I mean you. Live in a high rise in a walkable city. Like that's the other thing too. It it it so much more convenient. Touched on something, which is that even in the smallest town in Europe, there will be a city center, there will be public transportation, there will be amenities that in the US you are only going to get in a big dense urban area and one that's still being successful.

38:41And you know, some of our largest urban areas are are falling apart. But but that said, I think you know what, this was something I had to fight with a guy about on our very first scouting trips. And that was explaining that we did not want to see. We did not need to walk around city centers on all of these trips, big city centers, and explain to them that that exactly that the people on the trip were coming from Dallas and San Antonio and Birmingham and Portland and whatever. And even then, they weren't living dead in the city center. They were living in in suburbs

39:24of those cities. And that that's where most of the people we were working with lived. And so they were looking for something similar. But what's so nice about especially Europe? But honestly, it's the same is true here in Mexico too. Every neighborhood has its own Zocalo or other kind of gathering spot is that every place is so much more connected.

39:51If you go and move to Centubal in Lisbon, not only are you going to have a beautiful city center, even in a city of probably, I don't know, maybe there's a couple 100,000 people in greater Centubal, you'll have a walkable downtown, streets and you know, outdoor cafes, things to do, and then a 45 minute train ride and you're absolutely in the heart.

40:18Of Lisbon. Absolutely. You know, living in the US, especially in a city that was there was no public transportation. You know, there was a a bus system that laughable. It would take two hours to get 5 miles down the road because you had to transfer so many times. But to be able to go, I can live in the suburbs or live in a small adjacent town and be downtown, downtown in a European city in the same amount of time that it would have taken me to drive.

40:48And we thought nothing of driving 3030 minutes, 40 minutes, dealing with rush hour traffic. And in that same amount of time, we can have the best of both worlds. And I think that's something that lends itself to flexibility where people move. You don't have a car now. Oh gosh, no, I, I never want to drive for the rest of my entire life.

41:07If I'd never get behind a wheel, it would be too soon. I walk everywhere. I take the metro everywhere. If it's something that's inconvenient or I've got a bunch of bags or it's, you know, a doctor's appointment, I'm in my feelings. Cool. Then I can take a ride share if I need to. But you know, the the cost of not having a card more than makes up for any sort of transportation, including rideshare that that we have Americans abroad is an Expatsi production. Please like, share, subscribe and leave a review. Are you thinking about moving abroad? Start with our quiz at expatsi.com. That's expatsi.com.